Game of Thrones

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BB8
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:07 pm

AliRock110 wrote:Even if Bran tells Jon, it don't mean squat with nothing on paper. My guess is that Sansa finds something going through the Measter's old raven notes or Sam finds something at the Citadel confirming a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar. If it's on paper with a Targ seal from Rhaegar, Dany's claim to the throne is in serious jeopardy.
They're not simply going to find something written somewhere. Not just because that would be a huge cop-out but because it wouldn't make any literal sense at all within the story. The whole thing was done to keep Jon a secret from Robert Baratheon, if the info made it into a book somewhere the info would have definitley gotten out.

Finding the dragonglass info in a book conveniently is passable and works because the info is not actionable if you don't know the second half of the equation (knowing that whitewalkers exists and what can kill them).

I really think the characters that matter will be shown, not told.
IWish
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:08 pm

Jon is not the name that Ned's sister, Lyanna, gave him. Ned gave him that name...presumably because Jon's real name is "too Targaryan". If there are documents proving a marriage and perhaps noting the birth of a son, I wonder how Sam will link that 'son' to Jon. Maybe it will be Sansa who finds out thru documents left by Ned.

Yep. I too wondered if the dragons were going to play a part in the Bran/Jon reveal.
IWish
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:32 pm

I was just imaging the look on Cersei's face when Dany and Jon do a dragon fly-by over her castle. Maybe Jaime will kill Cersei with the giant crossbow to save them for some unknown reason. :lol:
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dryerase
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:40 pm

Still crossing my fingers for Dinklage on a dragon.
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middayshadows
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:48 pm

BB8 wrote: Jaime killing Cersei would make a lot of sense on a few levels and is characteristic of the show's style. I think Cersei is going to continue down the path of of turning into the mad king and Jaime will have to kill her the same way he had to kill the mad king.
That has been my forecast all along, but I'm now thinking it might be a mislead. The longer it goes and the more obvious it becomes that Jaime will be the one to kill her, the less I believe it will happen that way. I was convinced that Cersei was actually going to directly kill Tommen last season (for betraying her, siding with Margery and the Sparrow), and that Jaime would return to KL and kill her then. In fact I became so convinced of this theory I was disappointed when it didnt happen.

As it stands now, there isnt a substantial enough motivator remaining for Jaime to want to kill her, as besotted with her that he is. He has already seen the greatest extent of her madness (blowing up the Sept of Baelor and everyone in it, essentially neglecting Tommen to death), and turned a blind eye to it. It would be weird of him to somehow find her more crazy than that , at a later point. And to top it off, this season she is proving rational and effective. Definitely diabolical. But not mad.

The more the show points to Jaime, the more I think Tyrion. Especially now that his gambit to serve her comeuppance via Casterly Rock invasion has fizzled.
BB8 wrote:Bran is going to tell Jon Snow. It's been all but confirmed this episode. How the fact that he is a Targaryan gets proven to others is the mystery - because thats actually what REALLY matters - not Jon being told, but for others being told in a way they can't dispute.
Agreed, that having the rest of Westeros know of Jon's heritage in a way that is verifiable matters most. Bran will tell him. But now I am thinking that his identity will also be corroborated by someone else, in a different manner. I think the wheels for it were set in motion this episode, when Maester Wolkan talked about how Maester Luwin kept a copy of every raven scroll he had received in his records. I think Littlefinger will come across evidence of Jons parentage and/or R + L relationship being legitimate, in those scrolls. That's my take on it anyway. It would dovetail perfectly with LF's motives, to undermine Jons claim on Winterfell, and strengthen Sansa's.
BB8 wrote: They're not simply going to find something written somewhere. Not just because that would be a huge cop-out but because it wouldn't make any literal sense at all within the story. The whole thing was done to keep Jon a secret from Robert Baratheon, if the info made it into a book somewhere the info would have definitley gotten out.
I think it is likely the will find at least something substantial written. A Maester's entire purpose is to collect knowledge and truth. I think Luwin must have known about Jon and would have felt compelled to record it somehow, in a way he felt confident would remain hidden until necessary. And Luwin had a knack for secreting things away. It might seem like a shortcut but the show, moreso than the books, has made greater convenient short cuts. And again the main reveal about Jon, to us, the viewer, will still probably be made by Bran.
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PapaVo
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:56 pm

What if Cersei lets Euron Greyjoy in (if you know what I mean. ;-)) Would that be enough cause for Jamie to kill them both? Certainly, both events seemed to be foreshadowed in yesterday's Ep.
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middayshadows
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:01 pm

Ha ha , it very well could be the thing that puts Jaime over the edge.

Especially if prompts Jaime to realize Cersei's goal of creating a dynasty is for her, not the 'us' she promised him.

"The things we do for love."
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chimpun
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:10 pm

Philpenn wrote:We've already been shown that Jon is not fireproof.
Well we know he's not stab proof. Have we seen him get burned at some point? Not sure this is where the show is going but would be interesting if he had some immunity to fire like D. May just not have come up. Don't remember if it has on the show.

Re: Jamie and Cercei: Jamie seems to be leaning face instead of heel and distancing from Cercei. Grandma Tyrell's speech seems to be turning him more towards Cercei's side again. At least for me. Good on the writers for keeping him fluctuating between honor and evil... in my head at least.
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AliRock110
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Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:18 pm

BB8 wrote:
AliRock110 wrote:Even if Bran tells Jon, it don't mean squat with nothing on paper. My guess is that Sansa finds something going through the Measter's old raven notes or Sam finds something at the Citadel confirming a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar. If it's on paper with a Targ seal from Rhaegar, Dany's claim to the throne is in serious jeopardy.
They're not simply going to find something written somewhere. Not just because that would be a huge cop-out but because it wouldn't make any literal sense at all within the story. The whole thing was done to keep Jon a secret from Robert Baratheon, if the info made it into a book somewhere the info would have definitley gotten out.

Finding the dragonglass info in a book conveniently is passable and works because the info is not actionable if you don't know the second half of the equation (knowing that whitewalkers exists and what can kill them).

I really think the characters that matter will be shown, not told.
Ok, but if nothing is on paper, how is Jon Snow's claim legitimate? You think that Bran just telling Jon Snow is gonna convince Dany? How is that gonna move any lord across the 7 kingdoms? How would that be any more or less a cop out than the solution to Ser Jorah's problem. Nah dude for this to sizzle Jon Snow is going to need something on paper to make his linage worth anything or else he's just another Baby Moma bastard like Gendry who been rowing to nowhere. Without paper from somewhere Jon Snow is just a Basterd who's Moma was a lady instead of a hoe. We already covered Bastard kids born from Noble parents with Dorne, I don't think we're gonna revisit that here.
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Philpenn
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:31 am

If the Ned wouldn't even tell his own wife in order to keep her from hating an innocent child it's whole life, he's not going to allow his maester to keep a paper trail on the subject. Jon burned when he saved Jeor from the white. Obviously the show can do whatever it wants, and hasn't backed away from stupid writing before. Having a written royal decree being found, or Jon becoming fireproof post resurrection for no reason are both just that though. The way to prove Jon's parentage to the Realm could be in Lyanna's tomb. She shouldn't have one, but Ned insisted. If certain articles were inside, like Rhaegar's harp and Lyanna's Targaryen colored bridal cloak, that would be pretty clear cut.
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:50 am

dryerase wrote:Still crossing my fingers for Dinklage on a dragon.

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BB8
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:26 pm

Just to clarify. I don't think, in the show, Jon Snow's Targaryean lineage will ever be accepted by the general public of Westeros. I don't think he takes the throne ever or even fights for the thrones for himself. I do think, however, that Dany is eventually convinced. Indisputable proof might be brought to her in some way, maybe, but I will also accept her just gradually feeling that it is true over time, maybe her Dragons take to him, I don't know. Could be something a bit more abstract like that.

It works because at this point I don't think it makes any real sense, or it fits in anywhere, that Jon Snow acts in any way to convince the world of his Targaryean Lineage. Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, that is more important.
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apalma27
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:38 pm

middayshadows wrote:Ha ha , it very well could be the thing that puts Jaime over the edge.

Especially if prompts Jaime to realize Cersei's goal of creating a dynasty is for her, not the 'us' she promised him.

"The things we do for love."
Now that Tyrell admitted to killing Joffrey, will that move Jaime to side with Tyrion? I feel like Jaime is going to bring this news to Cersei and she won't waver from her hatred towards Tyrion. Jaime will keep pressing and with leave or she'll kill him.
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middayshadows
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:26 pm

apalma27 wrote:
middayshadows wrote:Ha ha , it very well could be the thing that puts Jaime over the edge.

Especially if prompts Jaime to realize Cersei's goal of creating a dynasty is for her, not the 'us' she promised him.

"The things we do for love."
Now that Tyrell admitted to killing Joffrey, will that move Jaime to side with Tyrion? I feel like Jaime is going to bring this news to Cersei and she won't waver from her hatred towards Tyrion. Jaime will keep pressing and with leave or she'll kill him.
I think you're 100% correct, Cersei won't waver in hating Tyrion. She has always considered him an inferior Lannister , at best.

And to her way of thinking , he may not have killed Joffrey but he very definitely killed their father. And she knows that he masterminded the taking of Casterly Rock, their own homeland. So yes, she still wants him dead I think.

Good question about Jaime though. I don't think he will defect to Tyrion's side, but I can imagine ways in which Tyrion will be pivotal in what ultimately divides Jaime from Cersei. I wonder if Cersei, after some turns of plot, will eventually order Jaime to kill Tyrion, and that Jaime ultimately refuses. A scenario like that might prove the final straw between them.
Last edited by middayshadows on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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john38103
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Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:37 pm

Tyrion still killed their dad.
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