Widespread Panic Puerto Morellos 12 Wood

[Rick_a_c]

^^^ valid points, for sure
An artist could go crazy trying to straighten that type of stuff out, and it sounds like the general issue of flipping as a business is really weighing on Jeff. The way I'm reading the tea leaves, Jeff is looking for whatever advice we collectors can provide. I think yours is important in any effort to address the systemic problem of mass abuse. By the way, he talked about these things in his rants, so he's definitely aware that he isn't going to be able to make a dent in the situation without assistance from those in the mainstream of the merchandising, facilities, etc.

[lazk]

Besides his "Artist Edition" allotment, are the rest of the run any of his concern? I just do not understand his small tirade.

[Rick_a_c]

[jeffwood]

Besides his "Artist Edition" allotment, are the rest of the run any of his concern? I just do not understand his small tirade.

Then you obviously do know how much I care for my fans and their ability to have a chance to buy a print for a show they attend.

He might not like what he uncovers....

No, I don't like what I've witnessed over the past few years. It's getting exponentially worse each year. I have no problem with people getting an extra to trade or for a friend, people selling posters they no longer want from their collections, online poster shops selling prints at reasonable prices etc.. I DO have a major problem with people gaming the system by using aliases and false IDs to buy multiples during online releases only to resell as soon as they get an order confirmation, paying off corrupt venue merch people to buy up prints before the doors open or conspiring with fellow flippers to hoard posters that they are listing ebay at ridiculous prices before the show's even over (sometimes even before it begins). All of these people are keeping posters out of the hands of people who just want a piece of affordable art on their wall to look back on and remember the good times with friends, or those fans who collect their favorite band's merch. The flippers create a false market with hyper-inflated prices that benefits no one but them.

I'm over unethical people who flip. They have become a huge blight on the scene. The fan community who buys posters, as a whole, are over it too. When it comes to gig posters, I'd love to do nothing but open ended editions. It would effectively kill the the high value flipping market. Unfortunately the bands decide the size of poster editions, not I.

PS: and to clarify...this is not the fault of the band's merch people. A large proportion of venues require the bands to check in their merch and that it be sold by the venue's staff. Therein lies the problem. Once a flipper pays off a venue worker, he gets access to every band's merch coming through that venue that the "bought off" worker handles. It has nothing to do with the band's merch people. They find it frustrating too. Panic en la Playa was an anomaly. I love my Cloud 9 folks. They are some of the best people in the industry, but they got blindsided by a group of people that took advantage of the fact that Cloud 9's merch vendors had know idea of the types of asses working the poster market to buy up quantity and resell strictly for the money. This problem has grown to epic proportions throughout the industry. That's wrong and something that needs to see the light of day.

[jojobadass]

It's all phish's fault really

[ErocAfellar]

Jeff-
I personally saw no sinister behavior in Mexico. Merch lines we're long and slow. There was more of a problem of people jumping in line with their friends versus flippers buying stacks. The main issue was there were 2000+ fans, the band (plus their family, friends and crew) and cloud 9 staff. The edition was 900. If people did grab an extra for trade (as you seem good with) then it makes sense that there was a huge shortage. So from my perspective, if the band sets the run, Brown Cat seriously underestimated the demand (which is no surprise in terms of merch).

[jeffwood]

jeff you're directing your anger at life

No, I'm pretty happy with life. I'm directing my anger at the flipping community and the thievery it has spawned in it's wake. For without the ability to flip there would be no need to steal or hoard posters to resell, would there?

Yes, there are much more important things in life to worry about. Yet, this matter affects me, the people who collect my work, the people who collect the band's merch that I work for, and the people that pay my bills directly, thus my disgust at the lengths some people will go to to make a buck. Buying a couple of posters to trade or sell is one thing, hoarding 10-50 by unethical means is another.

This stance just happens to directed at the ones who chose to be unethical in my line of work.

For the hundreds of fans showing support for my stand on flipping, there is always going to that minuscule group, including you, that moan about how we all should just get over it. Sorry, other artists, the fans and myself, have grown tired of that repeated selfish mantra. We may not be able to stop it, and likely never will, but it does not raise the unethical, habitual flipper's stature above being a bottom feeder making money off someone else's creative energy. For if it wasn't for artists, and the fans who collect their work, the unethical, habitual flippers would not have those pretty posters to flip. They are the actors that do not have a role to play in this scene. They are the unnecessary part of the equation.

Unethical capitalism and greed are never good, no matter what one has fooled themselves into believing. Know that the flippers are in the minority in this situation.

...and don't fool yourself, it happened at Phish shows, too. The one poster per person rule is probably the easiest to get around and everybody knows that. You included. People basically refined the art of flipping with working around that rule and the reselling Phish posters.

The poster's that were stolen out the the box weren't Panic prints, they were Trey Red Rocks posters. So you tell me the reason a person steals 50 posters if not to flip them. I doubt they stole them to wallpaper their house. Since that situation I haven't done work with Red Light. Strange, huh?

Panic has one of the best Merch teams around. Once it's checked in at the venue it's out of their hands. Panic's merch coordinator and myself are the ones who stopped the guy at Red Rocks who was selling under the table which was another whole scenario and situation. Panic Merch did their job. Greta and her team are good people and acted quickly to stop the situation. In your rush to belittle the reasoning for my stance you seem to have screwed it all up.

If people did grab an extra for trade (as you seem good with) then it makes sense that there was a huge shortage.

There are flippers bragging about how many posters they scored down there, so it was more than people just grabbing one for their friend.

Oy, vey.

[drowningcreek]

if everyone sold in demand posters like phish there wouldn't be a problem!


jeff you're directing your anger at life - we're all a part of it even if you don't agree with the actions that others take. there's no one with a missile aimed at a pre school... these are gig posters. i understand where your passion for your craft and your appreciation of the experiences that the artists you work with create come into play, but honestly and truly - aren't there more important things to be THAT upset about? it's not anyone's god given right to conveniently buy a gig poster at a concert. if the fans are truly upset, then it's up to them to rally at the merch booths en masse as soon as the gates open and force WSP to adopt a similar policy to phish when there is an in demand poster to be had: people line up in an orderly fashion and the posters are sold 1 per person, first come, first served. it's a necessity to avoid all of the things that you mention. although no policy is going to stop someone from stealing merchandise - and anyone that steals something is obviously going to sell it so to say that a "flipper" stole 50 prints off of your stack is just ridiculous. flippers buy prints and then sell them at a higher price (by definition, and hopefully!) - they don't steal them. the person that you're upset about is considered a "thief". the merch people at the venues that you're concerned about are "not doing their job".

have you put the word out to WSP fans to be on the lookout for #'s 1-50 of that run? hopefully you can catch the thief!

So, instead of expecting people to be somewhat ethical in their dealings, we have to get other people to band together to demand that someone force them to be ethical?

[jojobadass]

it's generally not in merch company and/or band's best interest to be the police; it's in their best interest to sell merch.

if they make limited merch and it sells out......that's good. What bands/merch companies don't want is hundreds of posters sitting on a warehouse shelf. fudge, 95% of the posters made have a lower value then they originally sold for.

This is a very fine line.................I've personally had WSP merch sell me 5 prints because they don't want to haul 200 posters from the last venue to the next venue. I've had them sell me one/per person when things are tight.

*** When a band/merch company makes a 1/per person limit........they, the band and/or merch company, are actually generating the highly inflated marketplace for flipping. When you open the flood gates and allow multiple purchases, that's when you wash the flippers out and the price stablizes where it should.

While I know you are good intentioned Jeff; I think you're really looking at this w/ tunnel vision and are giving a few instances too much weight.

[nowhitespace]

So someone stole 50 prints from the WSP show in Mexico? Or someone paid for 50 by paying off a vendor? Either way, I agree that isnt right. Not many of these prints have sold on Ebay, even since the shows. Maybe a dozen or so. So I guess either someone sitting on 50 of these, or distributed them to friends or are using them for trades. I would think that if someone stole 50 that we would have seen a lot more for sale on ebay. Ive never heard of this happening ever, well maybe with Guy Burwell at 'Roo a couple of years back. I remember him stating that someone broke into his stuff and stole high value goods. Both very lame and horrible Karma to whoever did that. It all does come around at one point or another.

I'm not here to tell Jeff what to do, but since youre looking to make a big move out of Athens, which I know is a lot of work since I have done a 200 mile move before, I'd be much more focused on that. I do understand Jeff's unhappiness with the things he stated. Policing every purchaser just seems like it would drive one nutty. Personally I would take that as a another lesson in the school of hard knocks, and focus on your true interest, which is moving to a better part of the country, Keep up the great concert art and best wishes with your move. I was able to score one from your sale and cant wait to receive it! Thx for makin those available at a reasonable cost! Keep you head up man and keep your eye o the prize. DOnt let this negativity pull you down. ONward and upward my friend.

[jeffwood]

Nobody paid off anybody in Mexico. Nobody stole anything in Mexico. Those two instances happened at Red Rocks. 50 Trey Posters Stolen. WP posters being sold under the table by Red Rock's merch people, not Panic's merch people. When I notified Panic before the second night, they put a stop to it immediately.

No use in discussing this any further here.

Carry On.

[nowhitespace]

right on. i was wondering if the prints sold on your site are from the same edition of artists prints that were sold in Mexico? Or if there is both an AE and AP editons, in addition to the regular run. 3 runs? Or 2? I'm confused.

[ErocAfellar]

right on. i was wondering if the prints sold on your site are from the same edition of artists prints that were sold in Mexico? Or if there is both an AE and AP editons, in addition to the regular run. 3 runs? Or 2? I'm confused.

i can't speak to Mexico specifically, but I have seen AP and AE editions of Jeff's stuff in the past

[Rick_a_c]

I've seen artist and subscription editions from Jeff, but I don't recall seeing AE's and AP's of the same poster. Examples?

[ErocAfellar]

I've seen artist and subscription editions from Jeff, but I don't recall seeing AE's and AP's of the same poster. Examples?

http://expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/40592
http://expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/40655