Help assessing possible counterfit. 8x10 Negative and 8x10 Glossy. Trey Anastasio / Danny Clinch 2001

General art-related discussion.
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Cleantone
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Sat May 23, 2020 12:17 pm

Thanks for looking. I'm not sure where else to look for help. I have a modest collection of 8x10 glossys from a few different bands. I also have a couple of negatives. I picked up a new on and for the first time had concerns over legitimacy. This was an ebay auction. The seller has many other negatives and prints for sale. It seems unlikely that someone would counterfit the negative. Thought I'm sure it's possible. I'm wondering of the negative is real but the print was reproduced with scanner/printer and photo paper. All insights would be very welcomed.
This is a black & white 8x10 inch promotional photo and the production negative that was used to make the photo. The negative was used to produce 8x10 inch black & white photographs for booking agencies, concert promoters and record labels.

This is a large format negative that measures 8x10 inch, same size of the print reproduced. The negative was glass plate mounted on a continuous roll photo printer that no longer exist. Negative is in relatively excellent condition and was assembled together using special red tape to attach the white border film that is different from the main image negative that contains the musicians name. These were hand-assembled back in the day by negative cutting specialists and something that could not be done by computers. There may be some red tape residue on the photograph.

This is solely being sold “As is” and a unique collectible negative and not intended to be used for print reproduction, besides the printing technique no longer exists to make reproductions from the negative.

This comes from a massive collection I acquired around 20 years ago of older press kits, promotional photos, ad mattes, posters, tour leftovers from record labels, concert promoters and booking agencies that I’m finally sifting through. Comes from and stored in a smoke-free and clean environment.
Listing image of 8x10
Image

Listing image of negative
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Negative lined up to listing 8x10
Image

Negative lined up to my pre-existing verified 8x10. The negative seems to be 5% smaller than my 8x10. It doesn't match up exact to my 8x10 but does match up to the "new" one.
Image

Top is "new" and bottom is my "real" notice the finish of the printed image. The real one has a texture to it and the other is very glossy. The "new" one has thicker font and the black levels of the font to the image don't look the same.
Image

The Elektra logo. "new" on left and "real" on right. Notice you can clearly make out the copyright R in the ral one. Also the location on the page is different.
Image

I showed the seller some of these images and they said
All I can tell you is they came from a collection that acquired them from a lab as a bulk purchase. I have no idea of the origin. I'll take it back if you don't want it but I really don't know anything else. Sorry.
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tourist504
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Sat May 23, 2020 12:34 pm

It does look funny. Do these have a value that would make forgeries profitable?
maden wrote:I would like to see a 16"+ diameter tube.
BlakeAronson wrote:This one is just big enough, but not too overwhelming in size.
jordachep wrote::drool: Can't believe the size. I want this so bad.
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Cleantone
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Sat May 23, 2020 12:58 pm

tourist504 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:34 pm
It does look funny. Do these have a value that would make forgeries profitable?
No I don't think so. I don't know enough about the original process to know if the small size difference tells the whole story. Logically it would seem as though the negative should match 100% scale to the run of prints. I'm assuming these types of things were created by a graphic designer and run off in one batch to give to the record label. So they should be pretty identical. These are then distributed to media, press, and venues. It seems crazy that someone would reverse engineer and recreate a negative to made tens of dollars. I don't know if a genuine negative of an promotional 8x10 would be one of a kind or if there would be a few copies made for some reason. Was hoping someone here might have some insight on the process or something. Thanks.
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MaxCollinsII
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Sat May 23, 2020 1:36 pm

>>
Creating a 'copy neg' would allow the person to then re-print the same image back on to photographic paper. Possibly helping it appear to be an original 'print'. Copy negs are quite common. Good catch though :clap:
The Original Pure Hemp Rolling Papers NOT Made In CHINA Unlike A Lot Of Our Competitors

PartPat: "All of Eb is one big mondo joke really."
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pewter14
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Sat May 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Hold on, I think I know a guy who can help .... oh, electrachrome .....
mistersmith wrote:Brady is one of the best QBs in history and will forever been seen as such.
Two links every EB member should read, please take a moment:

EB Wiki - How to Ship a Print in a Tube

Expressobeans For Sale Forum - Open Market Guidelines
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electrachrome
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Sun May 24, 2020 3:56 pm

Cleantone wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 12:17 pm

The Elektra logo. "new" on left and "real" on right. Notice you can clearly make out the copyright R in the ral one. Also the location on the page is different.
Image

I showed the seller some of these images and they said
All I can tell you is they came from a collection that acquired them from a lab as a bulk purchase. I have no idea of the origin. I'll take it back if you don't want it but I really don't know anything else. Sorry.
Going by this image alone, I would say that the 'new' photo is a copy. That is not to say that it isn't legitimate. There are any number of reasons to go the copy neg route, mostly due to time constraints to get a press kit out to a client. I could imagine that back in the day there were a number of labs in NYC or LA being able to knock this out in a day's time for either the label or PR rep.
I think this is a legitimate piece of memorabilia, but that's just an opinion and given without seeing the piece in person. Like you said, there really isn't a significant financial incentive to bootleg, and this is a good enough copy that I feel it was done professionally and for the original purpose of a PR press kit.
my 2 ¢
Cleantone
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Sun May 24, 2020 4:03 pm

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I welcome any other input of course. I do feel a little better. It's not big money but you want to know what you have in your collection. :)
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electrachrome
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Sun May 24, 2020 4:17 pm

now I'll tell a story.
In the mid 90's I worked in a photo lab in Boston doing digital imaging. One of the sales associates did part time PR work for the Mighty Mighty Bostones. As part of her job, she was in charge of producing things like the all access laminates. I asked her if I could scan hers and see if I could make a passable copy ...just to see how it looked. This came about after a conversation about bootlegging. And I bet her I could make one that would pass inspection. I had a thermal printer and laminator we used for various products we made in house. I did a high res scan, sharpened it and cleaned it up in PhotoShop, printed it to size and laminated it. Side by side, you could tell one was a copy if you looked very carefully, but without a master, it was pretty dead on. Maybe you can see where this is going already.
The Bostones do an annual run called the Hometown Throwdown and it was a run of shows over the course of a week. For the last show, Dicky Barrett (lead singer for the band) called my associate to see if she had an extra laminate for a friend he was inviting to the show. She said no, then said hang on. She came over to the lab and asked if she could 'borrow' my bootleg laminate. 1/2 hour later, Dickie comes into the lab and I handed it off to him to give to his friend.
So there is an off hand case where a bootleg was an actual legitimized piece of music memorabilia ...and, no, I never got it back and never made another one.
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MaxCollinsII
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Sun May 24, 2020 4:54 pm

electrachrome wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:17 pm
now I'll tell a story.
In the mid 90's I worked in a photo lab in Boston doing digital imaging. One of the sales associates did part time PR work for the Mighty Mighty Bostones. As part of her job, she was in charge of producing things like the all access laminates. I asked her if I could scan hers and see if I could make a passable copy ...just to see how it looked. This came about after a conversation about bootlegging. And I bet her I could make one that would pass inspection. I had a thermal printer and laminator we used for various products we made in house. I did a high res scan, sharpened it and cleaned it up in PhotoShop, printed it to size and laminated it. Side by side, you could tell one was a copy if you looked very carefully, but without a master, it was pretty dead on. Maybe you can see where this is going already.
The Bostones do an annual run called the Hometown Throwdown and it was a run of shows over the course of a week. For the last show, Dicky Barrett (lead singer for the band) called my associate to see if she had an extra laminate for a friend he was inviting to the show. She said no, then said hang on. She came over to the lab and asked if she could 'borrow' my bootleg laminate. 1/2 hour later, Dickie comes into the lab and I handed it off to him to give to his friend.
So there is an off hand case where a bootleg was an actual legitimized piece of music memorabilia ...and, no, I never got it back and never made another one.
:clap: fun read
The Original Pure Hemp Rolling Papers NOT Made In CHINA Unlike A Lot Of Our Competitors

PartPat: "All of Eb is one big mondo joke really."
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