The Print Code

General art-related discussion.
drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:14 pm

piemel wrote:
Yamar wrote:I'd agree that it's a "rule of thumb" and that on some smaller runs it can make sense. But my question would be when I see a run of say 30 prints, what's the point in having an A/P run of 10 to go with that?
I'd personally rather see a run of 40 with no A/Ps or 40 with 4 additional A/Ps.

It seems to me that advertising a smaller s/# print run but then an A/P run of more than 10% is just trying to use that small run as a selling point. Used to be (to me, IMHO) that A/Ps were a rarity. I'm thinking of how many Pollock Power A/Ps there are (2-3 for a run of 250, I think?) or things like that. Then think of the possibilities that a 30% A/P run would look like -- 3 A/Ps for every 10 s/# prints? Guess I'd have to ask "What's the point?"

Guess it comes down to answering why even have A/Ps? Why doesn't the artist just make a s/# run and hold on to how ever many would have been A/Ps to begin with?
Yamar,

In some cases:

A band contracts a poster artist for a poster with edition of 500. The artist might get paid and likely will also get the right to sell some AP's... What I am saying is that not always does a poster artist sell all the posters for a band... Look at Drowningcreek, they probably have a lot of big bands that ask them to desgign and print a poster but then the band takes care of selling it.
That's exactly what happens. And very often, when you see me selling s/n prints from some bands, I have purchased those back from the band at wholesale costs, not our cost to them, so I have prints to sell while vending and in our online store.

Almost all of our work is commissioned directly by the bands we work with, and the ones that are done for promoters are sent to the bands for their approval. No one likes to talk about it, but creating a poster for a promoter or venue to advertise is OK, but an edition to sell beyond that is viewed by most bands, their management, and their merch people as bootleg merchandise. Creating other merchandise from the poster image, like t-shirts, is also a big no-no. Don't get me wrong, we've done posters that were not approved by the band, simply because we didn't know another way to do it. Not any more.

These are all things "newbie" artists should be aware of. Kudos to DougR for going to the band for approval.

When we print a run of posters, Jeff prints 10-20 sheets of paper beyond what is required to fill the order to allow room for the misprints. We have a stack of misprints that get used to run test strokes for other jobs. After they are too messed up to be of any more use, they get destroyed. We do not sell those as art prints.

I am working on an "artist statement" for our web site right now & an FAQ that will address most of the issues being discussed here, but we have ALWAYS had an open door policy with our customers. If anyone ever has a question about any aspect of our work (other than how I get clients to the table!), Jeff or myself have always been more than happy to respond with the answers.

Do NOT sell posters before the show. Unwritten rule.

A paper trail with written permission from someone inside the band's org is always good, but even then is not reliable if they fire the person you got it from. (ICP)

Only sell a poster for a cancelled show if the band gives yo permission.

Now, if we could only get people not to load up posters on poster sites that were never used, printed, or approved.

When I get the artist statement completed, I plan to load it up to EB & to PP.
piemel
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:21 pm

xoxo
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mmotorcycle
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:24 pm

Yamar wrote:That's the hope beenz...

Michael --
If you're going to start doing APs (or P/Ps) for holdback for future sales, I'd encourage you to folow the "terms" for them as they exist. The P/P is supposed to only be used in the case that a designer is not the printer. The printer or print shop can then make/keep one copy of the print for each person who worked on that specific print (at least that's how I understood it). In some cases, this even becomes just one P/P for the entire print shop. This is why P/Ps should only number 1-3 per print - it's rare that more than that actually work on a print from my understanding.
The A/P discussion centers around what quantity is appropriate -- generally regarded as 10% of the s/# run or less. That you typed "at least 10%" is almost scary as it could mean a number of A/Ps equaling 50% or more of the s/# run -- not what you intended, I'm sure but it could be read that way. This is part of why many of us support A/Ps that are still numbered so that you know the full "standard" and A/P print run totals.

As far as sales before the show date, I have never had any issues with that. I think that if you identify gigposters as art, then it shouldn't matter. When you think of them only as ads, then it becomes one because sales prior to the show are the selling of advertisements while selling after is the sale of a "commorative collectible". From what I've heard, the big difference here is that the after-the-fact sale is hard to touch by entertainment lawyers. The sale beforehand is a bit more accessible. (or at least I think I'm remembering that right). Check out some thoughts on this in Art Chantry's forward in the SWAG book - I'll try and get it posted here tonight or tomorrow if I can...
I see what you mean. I always at least print 300 posters, usually more and only hold back 10 of those as a/ps. THat's all I ever stash away. I sign and number all of the run so that is always 10 percent or less for me.
AS for selling before shows that makes a lot of sense to me now. It is a rule that I have followed but not really understood.


I have a question that is haunting me right now that I would appreciate some advice on from everyone.

I got a job for a pretty big band and am almost finished with the printing. I only have the last color left to print so this means that I have 4oo sheets with several colors already printed.
Yesterday I just received word that the show was cancelled.

Now I have invested considerable time on these posters and have potentially lost a lot of money. I really want to finish printing them but am obviously having problems with ethics here. It is not too late to put cancelled on the poster over the show information.

Opinions please. I don't want to receive any gigposter lashings for untethical behavior.
Meow
drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:25 pm

piemel wrote:without getting into a different discussion here... i would hate to see only 'legal' posters...
I'm only talking about posters that were never, ever used for advertising, merch, and that never existed as anything more than a computer file. There are quite a few of these on display.

How do I know? I wrote asking to buy one from someone last week and they told me. The poster, however, is up on GPs.

I buy lot art, so that is not what I am talking about. I'm taalking about people just padding a portfolio.
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mmotorcycle
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:33 pm

drowningcreek wrote:
piemel wrote:
Yamar wrote:I'd agree that it's a "rule of thumb" and that on some smaller runs it can make sense. But my question would be when I see a run of say 30 prints, what's the point in having an A/P run of 10 to go with that?
I'd personally rather see a run of 40 with no A/Ps or 40 with 4 additional A/Ps.

It seems to me that advertising a smaller s/# print run but then an A/P run of more than 10% is just trying to use that small run as a selling point. Used to be (to me, IMHO) that A/Ps were a rarity. I'm thinking of how many Pollock Power A/Ps there are (2-3 for a run of 250, I think?) or things like that. Then think of the possibilities that a 30% A/P run would look like -- 3 A/Ps for every 10 s/# prints? Guess I'd have to ask "What's the point?"

Guess it comes down to answering why even have A/Ps? Why doesn't the artist just make a s/# run and hold on to how ever many would have been A/Ps to begin with?
Yamar,

In some cases:

A band contracts a poster artist for a poster with edition of 500. The artist might get paid and likely will also get the right to sell some AP's... What I am saying is that not always does a poster artist sell all the posters for a band... Look at Drowningcreek, they probably have a lot of big bands that ask them to desgign and print a poster but then the band takes care of selling it.
That's exactly what happens. And very often, when you see me selling s/n prints from some bands, I have purchased those back from the band at wholesale costs, not our cost to them, so I have prints to sell while vending and in our online store.

Almost all of our work is commissioned directly by the bands we work with, and the ones that are done for promoters are sent to the bands for their approval. No one likes to talk about it, but creating a poster for a promoter or venue to advertise is OK, but an edition to sell beyond that is viewed by most bands, their management, and their merch people as bootleg merchandise. Creating other merchandise from the poster image, like t-shirts, is also a big no-no. Don't get me wrong, we've done posters that were not approved by the band, simply because we didn't know another way to do it. Not any more.

These are all things "newbie" artists should be aware of. Kudos to DougR for going to the band for approval.

When we print a run of posters, Jeff prints 10-20 sheets of paper beyond what is required to fill the order to allow room for the misprints. We have a stack of misprints that get used to run test strokes for other jobs. After they are too messed up to be of any more use, they get destroyed. We do not sell those as art prints.

I am working on an "artist statement" for our web site right now & an FAQ that will address most of the issues being discussed here, but we have ALWAYS had an open door policy with our customers. If anyone ever has a question about any aspect of our work (other than how I get clients to the table!), Jeff or myself have always been more than happy to respond with the answers.

Do NOT sell posters before the show. Unwritten rule.

A paper trail with written permission from someone inside the band's org is always good, but even then is not reliable if they fire the person you got it from. (ICP)

Only sell a poster for a cancelled show if the band gives yo permission.

Now, if we could only get people not to load up posters on poster sites that were never used, printed, or approved.

When I get the artist statement completed, I plan to load it up to EB & to PP.
I think you just answered some of my questions. IN the place that I am at making posters, which is definitely "newbie" the only way that I can do them is by getting permission from the promotors. I think this is the way that most artists that I know get their work. It seems like only the artists that have been around quite a while are able to get the direct commissions. I don't have the contacts to get permission directly from the bands and realize that I reside in a very gray area.
I don't ever sell before shows, I have always just wondered why.
Meow
piemel
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:36 pm

xoxo
Last edited by piemel on Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
piemel
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:39 pm

xoxo
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drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:41 pm

MMM, don't wait to be contacted by the bands.

We've all followed the promoter model in some form or another I think..... times change.

And don't take my OPINION as gospel, because this really is an issue with many different opinions. One person may be OK with some things I am not. The above is how we choose to work.

:wink:
drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:41 pm

piemel wrote:that grey area is so grey that i sometimes hope for a lawsuit that will settle everything once and for all... but it sure would get ugly

and unless there is some form of agreed upon conduct (by the artists) that day might come sooner than most people think
It's really not as grey as some think.
piemel
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:53 pm

xoxo
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mmotorcycle
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:01 pm

A large percentage of the bands that I make posters for are more than alright with me coming to their shows with posters and selling them for a percentage. Some bands don't even want a percentage, they just want a few posters. These aren't always small bands but pretty large touring bands. I've really never run into a problem.
I do understand where the potential problem exists though.
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drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:14 pm

if you consider advertising perse I dont think a management can hunt you down but as we all know, a poster that is s/n and sold after the show (or sold in general) is not really advertising but merch... in that case the band does have a much more clear footing...
That's basically what I said up above somewhere.... advertising is completely OK, but once you s/n an edition and start selling it, you've moved into merch. Most merch companies do not take very kindly to people making $ off of their clients. We all know creating a t-shirt with a band logo on it isn't cool, right? Wasn't there even a thread about a guy selling bootleg t-shirts on ebay over on gp's a week or 2 ago? Kinda ironic, don't you think?

How many promoters actually sign libility clauses or any kind of contract with artists? And I have doubts that many would back the artist if it came down to a legal battle involving $. Technically, a promoter does not really have the authority to OK a merch deal using a band's name, do they?

Of course, just like the Offspring/Metallica Napster dealio, Offspring was totally fine with their music being disseminated for free, but Metallica was not. Same goes for the posters.
drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:20 pm

mmotorcycle wrote:A large percentage of the bands that I make posters for are more than alright with me coming to their shows with posters and selling them for a percentage. Some bands don't even want a percentage, they just want a few posters. These aren't always small bands but pretty large touring bands. I've really never run into a problem.
I do understand where the potential problem exists though.
I think that is going to be how it works out most of the time, but it's not usually the band that has a problem - bigger bands have merch companies that pay big $ to own the rights to create merch for them. And if you are paying the band a percentage, that's cool. Good way to schmooze, and make connections.

Again, this is all just my opinion, but it's opinion formed from talking to merch people, legal reps, and band management. And, it's not like I've spoken to all the bands..... so take it for what it's worth. :?
drowningcreek
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:22 pm

And I do see the glass as half full. Just in case anyone thinks I'm being negative nelly.

:lol:
piemel
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Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:29 pm

xoxo
Last edited by piemel on Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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