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Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:45 pm
by fredo
Shallow end is thata way.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:51 pm
by bubbie
I agree, it is not a dick measuring competition.

Had a brief chat with my wife about it. She is a child and youth mental health therapist. Clientele wise, drug and alcohol abuse in the family is a clear winner. Many more kids' lives get drymounted up because of drug abuse in the family. People don't necessarily see it or hear much about it, or maybe don't pay attention, because it is an every day life type of a thing. Surprisingly, the leader in drymounting kids up, and this leader is far ahead of all is "simple" neglect. Go figure.
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Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:54 pm
by mfaith
But dudes, you're seriously suggesting that someone being addicted to a substance, to the point of being unhealthy for himself and potentially the people around him, someone that just needs help, is the moral equivalent of drymounting children? Come on...

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:03 pm
by fredo
No, we're not making moral judgements. We're talking about practical societal problems and how (not) to deal with them.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:50 pm
by jjbehren
fredo wrote:Oh, so we're telling the mentally ill it's cool to pre-emptively kill themselves? Well!

Ps Effectively, to us outsiders it's an addiction is what I said.
First, mental illness and mental disorder are not the same thing. A mental illness is disease. A mental disorder is hardwired, like the color of your eyes or the number of fingers you have.

Second, I'm cool with anyone killing themselves if that's what s/he wants to do, mentally ill or not. It sucks, and I'd rather most people didn't, but who am I to say they can't?

Third, I know a great deal about how terrible chemical dependency is on children in families with a chemically dependent parent(s). I worked in child protection court for 11 years. The cases I've worked on are heartbreaking. Most of the cases I worked on were chemical dependency related. One woman had 9 children taken from her over the course of 10+ years because of her chemical dependency. She'd use while pregnant and every child was born addicted to opiates and/or meth. She'd have a Termination of Parental Rights petition filed against her the second she's come into the hospital to give birth, and she wouldn't even bother to fight it. She just pumped out drug addicted children.

I doubt anyone would argue that child molesters, quantitatively speaking, are a bigger problem for society's children than drug addicts. But chemical dependency is a disease that can, in theory, be treated. And the victims of chemical dependency are indirect. Pedophilia is a mental disorder that can't be treated. A pedophile can only learn to control impulses (assuming s/he has impulses to act). If a drug addict relapses it's terrible for their family/loved ones. When a pedophile acts on his/her impulses, a child (or, more often, children) gets raped, or worse. In the worst case scenarios, the child is lucky to be murdered within hours of being abducted. Often times, though, these children are kept and abused for days or even weeks before they are murdered. I worked on a case where two girls were kept locked in a house for years, each giving birth to multiple children. If any of you ever find yourself planning out how you're going to abduct and rape a child, please kill yourself.

Drug abusers are selfish assholes. Child molesters are monsters that have no place in society.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:58 pm
by fredo
Whatever you say, pal.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:00 pm
by pvecchi
mfaith wrote:Jesus Christ, is this bizarro land? Comparing child rapists to drug abusers? That's insane. Somebody's moral compass is a bit in disrepair. :shock:
It’s fredo and bubbles, what do you expect?

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:01 pm
by jjttdw
Well said jj. I completely agree.

The simple neglect part of bubbies post shows the position to be a slippery slope. Maybe TV/video games cause damage at half the rate of simple neglect but 4 times as many kids are exposed. Then TV is the winner.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:21 pm
by fredo
I missed the last sentence of jj's post.
jjbehren wrote:Drug abusers are selfish assholes.
Clinical!
jjbehren wrote:Child molesters are monsters that have no place in society.
Who said that they did? And to be clear I wasn't comparing the actual behavior of either group - only their inability to stop on their own and their collective effect on society.

You shifted from being cool with telling pedo's to kill themselves preemptively as a favor to their parents to parsing the mental health dictionary and grandstanding about child abuse being bad (no kidding).... and in the process dragged my pretty concise point into bizarro land.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:32 pm
by mfaith
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Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:47 pm
by fredo
Love it.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:54 pm
by jjbehren
fredo wrote:You shifted from being cool with telling pedo's to kill themselves preemptively as a favor to their parents to parsing the mental health dictionary and grandstanding about child abuse being bad (no kidding).... and in the process dragged my pretty concise point into bizarro land.
Is this the concise point you're talking about?
fredo wrote:We don't tell drug addicts to kill themselves.
If so, I think my discussion of the differences between drug addicts, the mentally ill, and pedophiles acting on their sexual attractions was necessary to justify my position that I respect and applaud a would-be child molester's, or even a child pornography collector's decision to commit suicide. I honestly think it's the noblest thing that person can do. And there was no "grandstanding." I was illustrating the fact that I am fully aware of the harms caused by both chemical dependency and child molestation so as to add credibility to my differentiating the two groups of people (whereas you were saying they are "effectively" the same).

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:15 am
by fredo
I think this is the point where we agree to disagree.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:14 am
by bubbie
mfaith wrote:But dudes, you're seriously suggesting that someone being addicted to a substance, to the point of being unhealthy for himself and potentially the people around him, someone that just needs help, is the moral equivalent of drymounting children? Come on...
No, I am not suggesting that at all.
jjttdw wrote:The simple neglect part of bubbie's post shows the position to be a slippery slope. Maybe TV/video games cause damage at half the rate of simple neglect but 4 times as many kids are exposed. Then TV is the winner.
Not really and that was not my argument.
pvecchi wrote:It’s fredo and bubbles, what do you expect?
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jjbehren wrote:
fredo wrote:We don't tell drug addicts to kill themselves.
If so, I think my discussion of the differences between drug addicts, the mentally ill, and pedophiles acting on their sexual attractions was necessary to justify my position that I respect and applaud a would-be child molester's, or even a child pornography collector's decision to commit suicide. I honestly think it's the noblest thing that person can do. And there was no "grandstanding." I was illustrating the fact that I am fully aware of the harms caused by both chemical dependency and child molestation so as to add credibility to my differentiating the two groups of people (whereas you were saying they are "effectively" the same).
So there is this 10-year old boy. He grew up without a father; the mother was addicted to all kinds of fudge. He was neglected since birth. And no, that was not the type of neglect where he got to watch the TV most of the time he was awake. That was the type of neglect where the child cried most of the time he was awake but no one really gave a fudge; he was fed whenever the mother felt like or was able to feed him; nobody really gave a drymount about the dirty diapers either, obviously, etc. You get the picture. Now this boy is 10 and he had molested a number of younger kids in school. His 5-year old sister is pretty drymounted up too, telling pretty drymounted up stories, but the mother rejects any idea of him molesting her as well. During the sessions, the boy denies any wrong doing and shows zero empathy.

Then there is this 17-year old boy who went through a very similar experience. He had molested a number of younger kids in school. He does not have any siblings.

Then there is a young woman who has been repeatedly molested when she was a child. She is now addicted to drugs and alcohol and doing all kinds of fudge wrong in her life because she cannot cope with the trauma she experienced in her childhood. She gives birth to a kid that she cares about but the trauma, addiction and the drymounted up lifestyle in general lead to the child being neglected to the point of drymount all. This woman is not the mother of either of the boys mentioned above. In fact, any of the boys above (fast forward to the future) could be the father to a young woman just like this one.

Should any (or all) of these people kill themselves at any point in time?

I really doubt that you are "fully aware of the harms caused" by substance abuse and child molestation.

Re: EB Death Pool

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:07 pm
by fredo
Thinking on it, I still disagree with the original post but regret the snark. Topic and participants deserved better than that. Mea culpa.