***SPOILER DISCUSSION - THE LAST JEDI - ***SPOILERS***

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Postby FlapJack on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:49 pm

Unfortunately, for me, seeing the crazy-eyed Luke menacing over over his nephew with his lightsaber lit will be the lasting image I walk away from this movie with.

That kind of bums me out a little.

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Postby Thinker on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:45 pm

Prisco077 wrote:
Thinker wrote:
Prisco077 wrote:I love that TLJ answered the mysteries posed by TFA in a challenging way.


Give me one mystery from TFA that TLJ answered.

Aside from Rey being Nobody. Which doesn't really count as an answer to a mystery because the whole point to her being nobody is that there was no mystery there to begin with.


Rey does count. It may not have been satisfying to people, but he answered it. And it serviced the story he was trying to tell by hammering home the theme that anyone could be powerful with the force. It's not something to be measured by a blood test. Also, I'm honestly not sure how Rey being a Kenobi/Skywalker/Solo would make any narrative sense.

The biggest mystery going into TLJ for me was finding out about what happened to Luke. Why he banished himself, how he lost Kylo and how he'd handle Rey. I loved the answers I got to those questions.

As for Snoke, I could care less about his background. He was an underdeveloped character in TFA, and there was no indication we'd get some huge reveal about who he was. That was completely fan made. It took Lucas three prequel films to give the Emperor a backstory. Watching the OT we knew even less about the Emperor than we did about Snoke. Killing him off was shocking and made Kylo, a well developed character, infinitely more interesting to me.

Honest question for people who loved TFA and hated TLJ because of the mystery issues - did it not bother you that TFA basically didn't even bother to explain the first order, or how after the Battle of Endor, the heroes were basically plopped down in the exact same situation as they found themselves in a New Hope? How did the Rebels go from victory to being in the same exact spot? That bothered me way more than anything TLJ.


Fine... lets forget about whether or not the Rey mystery counts and for the sake of argument I'll agree with you that is does- > It is not answered. I wish that is was, because I actually love the idea of her being nobody and I was telling my friends that I hoped that would be how it goes (with little faith Disney would go that way, but they did - for now).... If Rey is Nobody why does touching Luke's lightsaber in TFA trigger flashes to Luke's past/ Obi-wan calling out specifically "Rey" / A flashback to her being stranded on Jakku etc? None of that is answered and makes absolutely no sense to have happened if she is merely nobody. Plus, she found this out from Kylo... an unreliable source. Now, I hope her "Nobody-ness" stays that way because I like it... but it didn't really answer the mystery that TFA set up.... or if it did then that was an extremely cheap bait and switch.

Luke Mystery- We kinda knew already what happened. The specific thing that we didn't know was the inciting incident that caused the fall out between Ben and Luke. .... and what was the answer to that mystery? A misunderstanding? Fine... mystery answered I guess.

How can you not care about Snoke? He was literally the main villian and the biggest threat. We didn't NEED answers to his backstory yet, thats fine, but now he is dead. We'll probably get the backstory in some Netflix cartoon or Video Game down the road but it won't matter anymore. Rey's parentage is more of a "fan made" mystery than Snoke's backstory... I mean... We didn't need to know much about Snoke anyway... just SOMETHING that lifted his character higher than being a prop or place holder villian. We should know how and why he came to power.

Lastly, let me address your TFA and TLJ comparison.... It is two very different things being installment 1/3 and being installment 2/3. #1 has the luxury of being relatively (key word relatively) free from obligation of answering anything. It is the beginning of the road, it is answering some things but mostly setting up others. Anything left unanswered from #1 is easier to accept because you have 2 more movies on their way. #2 doesn't even need to answer much, but what TLJ got wrong is how much it completely ignored. There was no continuation and there doesn't appear to be any indication that we'll ever find out things like where the lightsaber came from, wtf knights of ren were all about. etc
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Postby rubberneck on Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:30 pm

Thinker wrote:
Prisco077 wrote:
Thinker wrote:
Prisco077 wrote:I love that TLJ answered the mysteries posed by TFA in a challenging way.


Give me one mystery from TFA that TLJ answered.

Aside from Rey being Nobody. Which doesn't really count as an answer to a mystery because the whole point to her being nobody is that there was no mystery there to begin with.


Rey does count. It may not have been satisfying to people, but he answered it. And it serviced the story he was trying to tell by hammering home the theme that anyone could be powerful with the force. It's not something to be measured by a blood test. Also, I'm honestly not sure how Rey being a Kenobi/Skywalker/Solo would make any narrative sense.

The biggest mystery going into TLJ for me was finding out about what happened to Luke. Why he banished himself, how he lost Kylo and how he'd handle Rey. I loved the answers I got to those questions.

As for Snoke, I could care less about his background. He was an underdeveloped character in TFA, and there was no indication we'd get some huge reveal about who he was. That was completely fan made. It took Lucas three prequel films to give the Emperor a backstory. Watching the OT we knew even less about the Emperor than we did about Snoke. Killing him off was shocking and made Kylo, a well developed character, infinitely more interesting to me.

Honest question for people who loved TFA and hated TLJ because of the mystery issues - did it not bother you that TFA basically didn't even bother to explain the first order, or how after the Battle of Endor, the heroes were basically plopped down in the exact same situation as they found themselves in a New Hope? How did the Rebels go from victory to being in the same exact spot? That bothered me way more than anything TLJ.


Fine... lets forget about whether or not the Rey mystery counts and for the sake of argument I'll agree with you that is does- > It is not answered. I wish that is was, because I actually love the idea of her being nobody and I was telling my friends that I hoped that would be how it goes (with little faith Disney would go that way, but they did - for now).... If Rey is Nobody why does touching Luke's lightsaber in TFA trigger flashes to Luke's past/ Obi-wan calling out specifically "Rey" / A flashback to her being stranded on Jakku etc? None of that is answered and makes absolutely no sense to have happened if she is merely nobody. Plus, she found this out from Kylo... an unreliable source. Now, I hope her "Nobody-ness" stays that way because I like it... but it didn't really answer the mystery that TFA set up.... or if it did then that was an extremely cheap bait and switch.

Luke Mystery- We kinda knew already what happened. The specific thing that we didn't know was the inciting incident that caused the fall out between Ben and Luke. .... and what was the answer to that mystery? A misunderstanding? Fine... mystery answered I guess.

How can you not care about Snoke? He was literally the main villian and the biggest threat. We didn't NEED answers to his backstory yet, thats fine, but now he is dead. We'll probably get the backstory in some Netflix cartoon or Video Game down the road but it won't matter anymore. Rey's parentage is more of a "fan made" mystery than Snoke's backstory... I mean... We didn't need to know much about Snoke anyway... just SOMETHING that lifted his character higher than being a prop or place holder villian. We should know how and why he came to power.

Lastly, let me address your TFA and TLJ comparison.... It is two very different things being installment 1/3 and being installment 2/3. #1 has the luxury of being relatively (key word relatively) free from obligation of answering anything. It is the beginning of the road, it is answering some things but mostly setting up others. Anything left unanswered from #1 is easier to accept because you have 2 more movies on their way. #2 doesn't even need to answer much, but what TLJ got wrong is how much it completely ignored. There was no continuation and there doesn't appear to be any indication that we'll ever find out things like where the lightsaber came from, wtf knights of ren were all about. etc


You think?
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Postby Prisco077 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:05 pm

Thinker wrote:
Fine... lets forget about whether or not the Rey mystery counts and for the sake of argument I'll agree with you that is does- > It is not answered. I wish that is was, because I actually love the idea of her being nobody and I was telling my friends that I hoped that would be how it goes (with little faith Disney would go that way, but they did - for now).... If Rey is Nobody why does touching Luke's lightsaber in TFA trigger flashes to Luke's past/ Obi-wan calling out specifically "Rey" / A flashback to her being stranded on Jakku etc? None of that is answered and makes absolutely no sense to have happened if she is merely nobody. Plus, she found this out from Kylo... an unreliable source. Now, I hope her "Nobody-ness" stays that way because I like it... but it didn't really answer the mystery that TFA set up.... or if it did then that was an extremely cheap bait and switch.


When I first saw the movie, I thought Kylo may be lying. But Johnson has come out and said that was not his intent. JJ could decide to change that. But as written, it's supposed to be true. As for why she touched the saber and it flashed to them, I think the simple answer is because those memories are associated with the saber. Rey was powerful with the force so she saw them. Obi Wan speaking to her is because they are both powerful with the force. Doesn't mean they need to be related.

Also, Obi-Wan and Luke, as Jedi, are not supposed to form attachments and have kids. That's the whole storyline of Anakin's downfall. So to have them repeat Anakin's mistakes would seem weird. She could be a Solo but rewatching TFA that wouldn't make a ton of sense. I don't buy Han and Leia leaving their child around in a desert forever.


Thinker wrote:
How can you not care about Snoke? He was literally the main villian and the biggest threat. We didn't NEED answers to his backstory yet, thats fine, but now he is dead. We'll probably get the backstory in some Netflix cartoon or Video Game down the road but it won't matter anymore. Rey's parentage is more of a "fan made" mystery than Snoke's backstory... I mean... We didn't need to know much about Snoke anyway... just SOMETHING that lifted his character higher than being a prop or place holder villian. We should know how and why he came to power.


I honestly don't care who Snoke is, nor did I care who the Emperor was in Empire. Rey's parentage is specifically addressed and is a huge plot point in TFA. Maz asks Han about it, Rey constantly wants to go back to Jakku to wait for her parents, etc. Contrast that with Snoke, whose backstory is never even hinted at or addressed in TFA. The movie makes no indication we would find out more about Snoke's backstory, the same way Empire didn't give us any indication that we'd get more on the Emperor. I'm fine with that. They are both the puppet masters of our main antagonist. And cutting the strings in TLJ makes Kylo more interesting to me going into 9.


Thinker wrote:
Lastly, let me address your TFA and TLJ comparison.... It is two very different things being installment 1/3 and being installment 2/3. #1 has the luxury of being relatively (key word relatively) free from obligation of answering anything. It is the beginning of the road, it is answering some things but mostly setting up others. Anything left unanswered from #1 is easier to accept because you have 2 more movies on their way. #2 doesn't even need to answer much, but what TLJ got wrong is how much it completely ignored. There was no continuation and there doesn't appear to be any indication that we'll ever find out things like where the lightsaber came from, wtf knights of ren were all about. etc



I completely agree with you about most of this stuff. TFA, as the first installment, has the right to set up mysteries. But going into TFA, the biggest questions I had were centered around what happened in the last 30 years. Why did the Empire rise again? Why did the Republic fail? We got zero of that. We got one shot of the First Order blowing up a bunch of people we didn't know but were told were Senators.

As a result, it made it seem like the OT accomplished nothing and we were just basically dumped into a New Hope again with different names for the rebels and the Empire. It never set that up as a mystery. It just wanted to reboot the series, so it did. That's fine and I like TFA notwithstanding that. But that lack of explanation bugged me way more than anything in TLJ.
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Postby binky79 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:22 pm

We are going to be arguing about this movie for the rest of our lives. Good or bad, that is kinda neat.
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Postby pewter14 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:24 pm

Finally saw this. Overall ... super enjoyable. Not as much as I enjoyed Force Awakens and had a few more cringe worthy moments, but, 2.5 hours flew by and I'm excited to see it again.

Certainly not a superfan even though I lived through the OT (super young, but was there). I don't feel a huge need to keep all the mythos intact (so, if I say something that isn't accurate below, relax), but still had some bummer moments as an old dude watching this new arc take off.

I love the idea of Luke being a grumpy drymount (cuz let's be honest, he was a shitty teenager to start this whole adventure) and can get completely on board with him isolating himself after what happened with Ben. His reunion with R2, the Leia hologram scene ... loooved it, nice hat tip of feels for us old folk. But, for Luke to not physically go back leaving Leia to fend for herself against the First Order after finding out Han died ... and hearing it directly from Chewy no less ... c'mon. And if he wasn't going to go back after that ... why then cross galaxy hologram himself to death doing it instead. Why the change of mind after they left? Yoda's speech to Luke didn't do it for me. Not getting this thought process. Again, love the flawed Luke idea, this was a bit too much, too quick.

While I don't mind Snoke's death coming before we find out anything about him, his death, as well as Phasma's felt way too Bond villain-ish. Let me string out your deaths just long enough to bring on my own demise. Sigh.

One scene I see getting fudge that I loved was Poe stringing Hux along pretending he couldn't hear him ... c'mon, that was great. Reminded me of Han on the intercom in the detention center when saving Leia, "we're all fine down here ... uh, how are you?" You can have some comedy in SW.

The Casino planet/rich folk make money off both sides of war scenes were a little too on the head for me as a 40 something wanting to escape the real world for 2+ hours, but again, if you need 12 year olds to understand, yeah alright.

Hyperspace through the lead war ship into movie silence ... got a slight gasp out of me. Knew it was coming, still drymounting loved how it was done. Bonus being Laura Dern won't be back.

It'll be interesting going back and watching TFA again after this movie basically took all the neat cliff hangers (Snoke, Phasma, how did the lightsaber get to Maz?, Luke getting handed his lightsaber back) and one by one tossed them out the window. All of them.

Anyway ... yay. Good thread all around. Happy dissecting y'all.
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Postby maddoghoek100 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:48 pm

The movie does not work on its own terms so I don't much care how it works in connection with other movies. You can only judge it on its own as we do only have the whole yet. Perhaps it is better in the context of the third movie, perhaps not. This movie does nothing to deepen TAX that is for sure and seems to be intentional.

On its own terms the movie is the o.j. car chase. Long, drawn out and boring. There are just so many signs of bad writing.
- how exactly Del Toro knew the resistance's plan when poe, finn and rose did not.
- Why is maz taking phone calls in the middle of a gun fight
- who is it the resistance keeps getting refered to as rebels "rebel scum".

I wish Johnson has been less interested in dismantling TFA and more interested in writing a clean tight story.
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Postby Prisco077 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:07 am

maddoghoek100 wrote:The movie does not work on its own terms so I don't much care how it works in connection with other movies. You can only judge it on its own as we do only have the whole yet. Perhaps it is better in the context of the third movie, perhaps not. This movie does nothing to deepen TAX that is for sure and seems to be intentional.

On its own terms the movie is the o.j. car chase. Long, drawn out and boring. There are just so many signs of bad writing.
- how exactly Del Toro knew the resistance's plan when poe, finn and rose did not.
- Why is maz taking phone calls in the middle of a gun fight
- who is it the resistance keeps getting refered to as rebels "rebel scum".

I wish Johnson has been less interested in dismantling TFA and more interested in writing a clean tight story.


Not sure about 2 and 3. But upon second view, your first question will be answered. When their aboard the ship with Del Toro, Poe tells Finn and Rose over the intercom that Hodo is evacuating on small ships. The camera pans to Del Toro as he overhears it. Didn't catch it the first time, but that is 100% addressed in the film.
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Postby bulkhead72 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:08 am

Maz is incredibly annoying and I'm glad that she only got 10 seconds of airtime in this movie.

That is all...
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Postby wonkabars7 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:41 pm

Lols at Maz playing Battlefront 2 on her Twitch channel during her cameo. Such a bad movie.
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Postby allyouzombies on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:52 am

Some stray thoughts after seeing this again...

- I was initially unsure how I felt about Rose surviving at the end. It seemed a little too convenient - like Johnson was afraid to actually kill off any characters. But in retrospect, it was the right move. Had she died, she would've ended up being reduced to an ideological mouthpiece who shows up just long enough to teach one of our heroes a lesson.

- Both Rey and Kylo tell the other that they saw each other's future. I forgot what Rey says exactly, but it's something along the lines of Kylo not being bound to Snoke. And Kylo tells Rey that he saw her eventually standing beside him. Their visions were accurate: they were both seeing the moment when they fight together to take out Snoke's guards.

- I wondered why Yoda just happened to show up at the specific moment that he does - again, one of those things that feels a little too convenient. But it makes sense, if Luke has closed himself off from the Force, he probably hasn't been communicating with the Force Ghosts. It isn't until he opens himself back up (we see it in that nighttime scene where he calls to Leia and she answers) that he's able to talk to them again.

- After Del Toro sells out Finn/Rose, he calls Finn "Big F." :clap:
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Postby toobs on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:00 pm

After a second viewing a few days ago I still like it...maybe a little bit more. Porgs are awesome they can be your pet/sidekick and double as a delightful snack

Image
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Postby mahilgen on Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:29 pm

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Postby ArchibaldTuttle on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:04 pm

Luls toobs- love it. I only have a handful of (non-collectible) Funkos, but I definitely bought 3 different porgs and I have no shame.
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Postby SPAC04 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Snoke backstories matter imo
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