Flipping...

General art-related discussion.
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thegig
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:15 pm

IMO, we live in a capitalist economy and this whole poster/art deal is a free market, so while I don't condone price gauging, I have no problem with flipping something from time to time, especially when you buy one to print and one to flip to make your money back.

Discuss....
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jojobadass
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:38 pm

it's a free country........I don't care what anyone does. Go jump off a building for all I care, just don't land on me.
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Bread8
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:19 pm

it's a sign that an artist isn't charging enough for their work when they release something.
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Yamar
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:43 pm

I think that an artist "charging enough" is a very hard line to walk -- set the price too high and you may be stuck with a lot of prints (granted, you can always drop the price on something but you may have some folks upset if they bought at the higher level).
I think that you're starting to see Emek charging more consistently. And Jermaine has said that his stuff will be more in '06 too. Guess we'll wait and see...
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Bread8
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:11 pm

i'm not saying to triple the price, but bump them up ten or fifteen bucks so prints are available at an artist's site for two or three days instead of mere minutes (and then on ebay before the artist even ships).

It'd be nice to not have to worry about pretending to go to the bathroom during a meeting at work just so i can try and get a jermaine poster. hopefully they'll last a little longer this way. we'll see.
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pi3rce42
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:27 pm

thegig wrote:IMO, we live in a capitalist economy and this whole poster/art deal is a free market, so while I don't condone price gauging, I have no problem with flipping something from time to time, especially when you buy one to print and one to flip to make your money back.

Discuss....
I don't know about price gouging, but it seems that some people will get carried away with it. Example, certain vendors with 'buy it now' prices through the roof on posters, but if your patient then you can find a decent price. I guess it all depends on what the poster is worth to the purchaser.
don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things...
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jojobadass
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:47 pm

Bread8 wrote:i'm not saying to triple the price, but bump them up ten or fifteen bucks so prints are available at an artist's site for two or three days instead of mere minutes (and then on ebay before the artist even ships).

It'd be nice to not have to worry about pretending to go to the bathroom during a meeting at work just so i can try and get a jermaine poster. hopefully they'll last a little longer this way. we'll see.
Some Jermaine/emek posters never sell out.....look, the artist's need to make their cost back on the posters. Do you think emek's cleared his costs on the Bauhaus print? I have no idea, but I would speculate w/ the high entry cost....he hasn't. It's a fine line to walk.........the artists hold back plenty of prints to sell later at higher prices, you just have to be willing to pay it.

Also if you haven't been paying attention, there is a huge poster boom going on right now. Every collectable goes through these phases......you couldn't give 2nd print fillmores away at years ago. Now, that the 1st prints are so expensive.....the 2nd prints have become much more desirable. Baseball cards, comics, toys.....they all go through ups and downs.
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Bread8
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:02 pm

Your discussion on artists needing to recoup their costs makes it sound like you think a flipper is actually doing somebody like emek or jermaine a favor by reducing their inventory. I'll buy that arguement for a wholesaler/dealer, but a flipper that's only buying two or three extras? come on.

I can understand secondary markets on posters that are a year old - heck, i'll even say 6 months old, but flipping something before it even arrives at your place is just a lame attempt at making a buck off of somebody else's work. Unless you consider hitting refresh over and over a viable skill.

and no, i hadn't noticed the boom. thanks for pointing it out.
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Codeblue
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:44 pm

Bread8 wrote:i'm not saying to triple the price, but bump them up ten or fifteen bucks so prints are available at an artist's site for two or three days instead of mere minutes (and then on ebay before the artist even ships).

It'd be nice to not have to worry about pretending to go to the bathroom during a meeting at work just so i can try and get a jermaine poster. hopefully they'll last a little longer this way. we'll see.
If I'm not mistaken, part of the whole poster ethic (at least by PNE) is providing an artistic product at a price that is affordable to the masses. To raise the price over $50 for a first run print kind of defeats this purpose IMHO.
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jojobadass
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:01 pm

Bread8 wrote:Your discussion on artists needing to recoup their costs makes it sound like you think a flipper is actually doing somebody like emek or jermaine a favor by reducing their inventory. I'll buy that arguement for a wholesaler/dealer, but a flipper that's only buying two or three extras? come on.

I can understand secondary markets on posters that are a year old - heck, i'll even say 6 months old, but flipping something before it even arrives at your place is just a lame attempt at making a buck off of somebody else's work. Unless you consider hitting refresh over and over a viable skill.

and no, i hadn't noticed the boom. thanks for pointing it out.
in theory, wholesalers aren't paying retail prices......so, therefore the artist would actually be making less when selling to dealers. If there wasn't the demand, people wouldn't be flipping posters. And yes, flippers actually do increase demand for a product by eating up supply. It's simple economics.....2 or 3 prints a person does add up.

If an artist sells out of his initial stock instantly, the product will obviously be worth more than if it takes 3 weeks to sell out. I assure you artists take advantage of their remaining stock and price them accordingly. And, I don't mind paying the extra or trading for something if I miss out on an onsale.........I do it all the time.

Part of the fun of collecting anything is the value.......just like comics or baseball cards. People want to see their value going up.....not staying the same or going down. Collectors are what create the frenzy.......not the guy who wants one or two posters on the wall.

Basically, there wouldn't be drug dealers if there weren't drug addicts.
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Yamar
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:28 pm

I think I'm pretty much with jojo on this thing. I do what I can to get prints at the initial onsale -- don't we all? It's by far the most cost effective way to get more popular pieces.
But that's not always gonna happen. And you have to decide what it's worth to you, in cash or trade. Sometimes you do get lucky and a friend has an extra that they are willing to pass on (as I was fortunate enough to do with Emek's Nick Cave) - I was happy to return the favor when I got an extra BoNA Mogwai a couple of days later. But sometimes you miss out -- Emek's DCFC for example - I was on the road all day and it wasn't gonna happen. But at this point, I'm not in the much pursuit of it so I'm not worried about what I'll part with for it.
I think it's pretty wrong (and hell, it's against Ebay policy for what that's worth) to sell something you don't have in hand. I've resold plenty of prints that I've bought. Some I've owned for months (or years) before doing so, some much less than that. But never before I have them in hand - to me that's just not right.
Yes, it's not really "fair" that not everyone who wants a print can't always get one. But that's the fact of a market based in things that are of limited editions -- the desire for many things would be less if they were available to anyone at any time. To me, it's not unlike when I used to camp out for concert tix. If I really wanted to go to a show (and to try for the best seats I could) then I got my ass where it needed to be to do so. And I did that countless times in high school, less in college, rarely (if ever) anymore. But now I do it for prints -- I watch. I plan my breaks at work accordingly. I weigh it against how much I want a print and plan as such. Or I accept that I'll have to consider again and likely pay a higher price later.

And an artist increasing their price $10 isn't gonna kill the market on anyone for the most part. I think that BoNA may have been pushing it a little with the $75 tag on the Atlas print. But Emek's Nick Cave showed that a $50 tag didn't really scare most folks off. Jermaine's Exhausted Beauty flew at $100 a pop (although with a very limited number available). But I do wonder how many of Jay Ryan's art print thru the Decoder Ring (@ $250 a pop) are left. Sounds like "not many" out of the run of 80, but does that mean 5 left or 25?
I think that for the larger artists, bigger bands, and/or killer art that a "face" price around $40-50 is going to become pretty common. Smaller artists, smaller bands will (I hope) stay in the $15-25 range. You see popular prints and great art in both realms - just gotta keep those eyes (and minds) open :)
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Bread8
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:57 pm

the whole poster ethic is to make something creative enough to get people to go to a concert. Affordable art is a secondary motivator for the artist, but i guarantee you the promoter in california doesn't care if the poster for his club appeals to somebody living in michigan that can't attend the show.

and actually, the PNE crew are probably in the top 5% in terms of initial sale price. Relative to other poster artists, they ain't cheap (although in my opinion they underprice themselves).

the supply/demand arguement is being presented is very short term. Once somebody releases another print and people have gone to "the next big thing," you see how much of this was just a feeding frenzy by speculators creating an artifical demand.

examples -
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=16722
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=30110
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=27922

It looks like burlesque is testing the waters by putting a real price on that atlas poster. people are reacting like this is a failed poster because it's still available five hours after it went on sale. I'll bet anybody on this site $75 right now that it "sells out" on their site in less than five months.
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jojobadass
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:42 am

Bread8 wrote:the whole poster ethic is to make something creative enough to get people to go to a concert. Affordable art is a secondary motivator for the artist, but i guarantee you the promoter in california doesn't care if the poster for his club appeals to somebody living in michigan that can't attend the show.

and actually, the PNE crew are probably in the top 5% in terms of initial sale price. Relative to other poster artists, they ain't cheap (although in my opinion they underprice themselves).

the supply/demand arguement is being presented is very short term. Once somebody releases another print and people have gone to "the next big thing," you see how much of this was just a feeding frenzy by speculators creating an artifical demand.

examples -
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=16722
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=30110
http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=27922

It looks like burlesque is testing the waters by putting a real price on that atlas poster. people are reacting like this is a failed poster because it's still available five hours after it went on sale. I'll bet anybody on this site $75 right now that it "sells out" on their site in less than five months.
Here's my guess for 6 months and 6 years from now (since you only think flipping is a short term thing):

The pollock will never be worth more than $50......there's 25000 friggin prints (ex. see: everett - grateful dead fall '95). If you payed more than $50, you're impatient.

the mogwai will be worth $100 in 6 months.....once it shakes out on eb/ebay. 6 years from now.......who knows, it really depends on what BONA/horkey do w/ their careers.

the ween will be worth $100 or less in 6 months......emek has legs (staying power) and has proved himself over the long run and this poster will be worth $200+ in 6 years.

The OTA will always be worth $75 (or less)......because it's just an art print.

I bought the OTA for $75, but to be honest.........I have the lukewarm aftermarket feeling about it. But, as a collector; I collect every horkey I can........so, the bottomline was I was willing to pay whatever for it. However, if the intial prices remain high on horkeys.........I'll simple grow weary and find something else to collect.

And the sad fact of life is 'every dog has his day'..........look at arminski, coop, kozik, hess.....these guys were experiencing in the mid 90's what emek, jermaine, and BoNA are experiencing now. What happened to the kings of the 90's?, why did the bottom fall out on their work? Ten years from now......if you're still collecting, we'll probably be talking about 3 completely different artists.
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Yamar
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:59 am

Agree some, disagree some.

The Pollock (being an 11000 print run, not 25000) will likely not appreciate - at least not unless Phish reunites and does another 20 years of touring on a yearly basis, thereby engrossing a whole 'nother set of rabid fans.

I bet you're right on the Mogwai for the short term. But predicting long term (as you've said) is a crapshoot.

The Emek Ween I can't see dipping below $100 but it is little above that these days. Do agree that it'll likely become harder to find as time goes.

The Atlas... well see above. It hasn't sold out yet (I think) but when it does, might see some appreciation.

I think it's a bit funny that you mention four artists (Arminski, Hess, COOP, and Kozik) as being essestially "past their prime" in terms of collectible cash level. I think it's quite the opposite -- those pieces which were desirable in their heyday are still quite sought out - and at higher levels than in the mid-90s. Try and find most of the '94 Arminski posters (the harder ones). Or a COOP Jon Spencer. Or the "in demand" Hess prints. Or a Kozik Flintstones print or Green Lady. Those are the "heyday" prints.
Even when they came out, no one was really jonesing for Hess's Ministry print - that's why you can still get it from him for $30 ten years later. Same with a couple of the '94/95 Arminskis (well, maybe not from him, but they are locatable at cheap prices). Or COOP's smaller band prints. Or many of the mid-90s Koziks. None of those ever demanded higher prices for many reasons.
So yes, I agree that the focus is on these "newer generation" artists, but those pieces that are key from the "older ones" are still that. And I think it does show when they do come up that folks are still wanting them quite actively.
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jojobadass
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Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:08 am

Yamar wrote:Agree some, disagree some.

The Pollock (being an 11000 print run, not 25000) will likely not appreciate - at least not unless Phish reunites and does another 20 years of touring on a yearly basis, thereby engrossing a whole 'nother set of rabid fans.

I bet you're right on the Mogwai for the short term. But predicting long term (as you've said) is a crapshoot.

The Emek Ween I can't see dipping below $100 but it is little above that these days. Do agree that it'll likely become harder to find as time goes.

The Atlas... well see above. It hasn't sold out yet (I think) but when it does, might see some appreciation.

I think it's a bit funny that you mention four artists (Arminski, Hess, COOP, and Kozik) as being essestially "past their prime" in terms of collectible cash level. I think it's quite the opposite -- those pieces which were desirable in their heyday are still quite sought out - and at higher levels than in the mid-90s. Try and find most of the '94 Arminski posters (the harder ones). Or a COOP Jon Spencer. Or the "in demand" Hess prints. Or a Kozik Flintstones print or Green Lady. Those are the "heyday" prints.
Even when they came out, no one was really jonesing for Hess's Ministry print - that's why you can still get it from him for $30 ten years later. Same with a couple of the '94/95 Arminskis (well, maybe not from him, but they are locatable at cheap prices). Or COOP's smaller band prints. Or many of the mid-90s Koziks. None of those ever demanded higher prices for many reasons.
So yes, I agree that the focus is on these "newer generation" artists, but those pieces that are key from the "older ones" are still that. And I think it does show when they do come up that folks are still wanting them quite actively.
Agreed on the 90's guys...........every good artist will have iconic images that will pass from generation to generation. Good bands in the billing will help out that cause......example, nobody's ever heard of this artist; but, most old collectors would die for this print:

http://www.expressobeans.com/show.php?id=5774
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