Replacing damaged prints with the same numbers

General art-related discussion.
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sunsetbrew
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:44 am

My favorite part....
According to Kaufman, "a customer who is difficult during a sale will come back to haunt you."
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mmotorcycle
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:08 pm

So once you folks figure out what is ethical for signing and numbering, how are you planning to influence the artists and printers? There seems to be an awful lot of talk among collectors and a very few artists/printers, but in the end I don't think it matters one wit to artists and printers what conclusions about ethics are drawn by collectors.
Are you going to stop collecting in protest? Rene is this about coming up with definite guidelines for all of us to follow as members of the API?
If they are not strictly followed are you hoping for repercussions?
What is the desired end result? I'm all for following guidelines but it seems like all of the discussion goes on without the knowledge or input of the people actually making the art.
(Not negating any of you that create art/ posters, there just aren't many of us over here or on BYR)
Meow
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marshhouse
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:14 pm

mmotorcycle wrote:So once you folks figure out what is ethical for signing and numbering, how are you planning to influence the artists and printers?

Strong-arm tactics.

Like, for instance, with you there's a big bottle of Nytol waiting just up the road.


:wink:
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mmotorcycle
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:52 pm

marshhouse wrote:
mmotorcycle wrote:So once you folks figure out what is ethical for signing and numbering, how are you planning to influence the artists and printers?

Strong-arm tactics.

Like, for instance, with you there's a big bottle of Nytol waiting just up the road.


:wink:
:D I am terrified now. I am curious how everyone feels about my editioning behavior. I always pull out 8 to 10 of the absolute most perfect prints, by perfect I mean only things that I would EVER notice. Being the printer I notice the tiniest things that not even the most observant would likely notice.
Then I edition the rest. No overrun. Would it be better for collectors if I noted how many A/Ps there are on my website? Would it be better if I numbered these as printers proofs instead of artist proofs? I still want to retain at a minimum 8 prints for myself. Not saying that they won't be sold at a higher price someday.
Whenever the rare shipping loss happens I always instruct the buyer to send it back to me, I destroy it and send them a new poster with a completely different number. I never renumber posters.
Feelings?
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Bread8
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:22 pm

Partially editing your quote for clarity - please correct me if I twist anything up...
mmotorcycle wrote: A - Then I edition the rest. No overrun. Would it be better for collectors if I noted how many A/Ps there are on my website?
B - Would it be better if I numbered these as printers proofs instead of artist proofs?
C - I still want to retain at a minimum 8 prints for myself. Not saying that they won't be sold at a higher price someday.
D - Whenever the rare shipping loss happens I always instruct the buyer to send it back to me, I destroy it and send them a new poster with a completely different number. I never renumber posters.
E - Feelings?
A - You will never hear anyone complain about having full disclosure on an edition size
B - Makes no difference to me. Really, you're the artist and the printer, so it's a tossup. There are a few people that quote all kinds of guidelines (that i never bother to read because it's like pulling teeth). I think the jist is that A/Ps are never more than ten percent of the s/n run and p/p are limited to two or three.
C - they're your prints, can't blame you for stashing a few for later
D - Not renumbering posters is an awesome rule of thumb to live by
E - nothing more than feelings
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sunsetbrew
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:48 pm

If a collector comes to expect a certain behavior and an artist does not comply, a collector is likly to complain to said artists and if said artist does not respond in kind, said collector will come back to haunt said artist. It is not strong arm tactics, but very effective.
piemel
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:59 pm

xoxo
Last edited by piemel on Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sunsetbrew
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:06 pm

piemel wrote:
Not buying? Yes, some people will not buy from a certain artist because there have been too many games going on with the numbering system. As for me, I probably will stop collecting somebody if I deem an artist to be unethical... hasnt happened yet
Has for me... I don't collect Ames among a few others. Of course that is my type. I also don't by gas from Exxon or Shell and at every opportunity I swipe cash away from Microsoft. Does it make a difference, in the big picture...not likely, to me...definitely.
piemel
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:26 pm

xoxo
Last edited by piemel on Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mmotorcycle
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:34 pm

Awesome. Thanks REne. Just to clarify. I wasn't attacking you in the least. Just asking questions. I think it is great that you ask these questions and that everyone here is so concerned with edition numbering and the like. Thanks also for the review of my editioning practice, I thought that I was already doing things that would make everyone happy but thought that I would actually ask just to make sure.
Also in Seattle there was a lot of talk about revamping the API website in order for it to be a more effective tool. I haven' t heard a peep about it since. I check there frequently and there is never any new activity. Is there still going to be a revamp?
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piemel
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:48 pm

xoxo
Last edited by piemel on Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mmotorcycle
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:57 am

Because of this thread I do think that I will start including how many artists prints that I take out of each run on my website. I like the idea.
I figured as much about Clay.
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Bakedbeens
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:14 am

I've been following this thread closely as a beginning collector merely for education purposes. (Plus I tend to read all the posts here on EB).

What I've gathered is that we're pretty close to hammering out an Artist's Ethical Standard Practices Statement. A better acronym can be chosen later.

I don't mean to elevate myself or EB to a self-righteous level, but it seems that this issue needs to be addressed in a way that will benefit both the artists and the collectors. It might be easiest to draft a set of definitive guidelines, and then it can be referenced by name, such as a COA, instead of printing out separate ones or listing the whole thing in every ad and webpage.

Maybe the ExpressoBeans Authentication Guidelines -- EBAG ?

Just a thought to give this argument some teeth. Because, as was mentioned, just us talking about it isn't going to change much except our own personal collecting habits. With this, if it gets accepted and referenced, we might be able to set a new standard and reach that goal of elevating posters to a more respectable level in the art world.

I'm very interested in y'all's opinion on this one. Are we ready to take that step and declare ourselves as a leader in this, or am I way off target and we're not thought of as seriously over here.
They do so much with just the notes that they have. I mean who does that? Who messes with that kind of stuff?
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marshhouse
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Mon May 16, 2005 11:14 am

Read the item description on this Ebay auction and let me know your thoughts.

This isn't my auction BTW.

I don't know that I like a misnumbered one (or God knows how many) floating around. Would this make the misnumbered print more valuable or would it detract from the value of the whole run?
Bacon is love.
cushway
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Mon May 16, 2005 12:35 pm

Interesting point. I think that accidents happen, as long as they are not a regular occurence.

I liked BakedBeensprevious comment. Makes some sense. But it is important just to at least talk about these issues--------and right now there are a lot of issues that need to be decided------and a lot of things that are going to happen to shape the value/worth of this hobby/art form................

there are too many being produced
there is speculation
the bar is too low and its too easy to get in
uncertain/uneven 'rules' ca cause nervousness in buyers
immature, boorish methods of advancement

Even if there is no power to change/influence things now, just there discussion might spark something.

I also think that the 'ebag' idea is quite interesting---------and might, with time, provide some kind of basis-------------it would be positive. But, does there need to be an underlying philosophical/intelligent 'structure'. The 60's had the peace and love stuff , but there was actually quite a bit of mental work/underlying 'help' in this from the towering intellects of Hayden, Gitlin, Ghandhi, etc.

P.
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