EB Sales History - Ebay Auctions

General art-related discussion.
ashfrog
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:25 am

Good day all....I just had a quick inquiry to all of you who have been in the business for a while. I'm sill a little green to this madness, but I wanted to see what people's thoughts are on EB History - particularly Ebay listed auctions. Is it a common (shady) practice for some individuals to try and manipulate the EB history (i.e. to raise the average price) by making false auctions (i.e. having a friend throw a outrageous bid out, then no transaction take place)? I just notice many "bid history's" on some of these auctions listed just don't make sense (i.e. bid's going from $40.00 to $70.00 on the next bid, etc.?). I know this can be common practice on ebay to raise the price of the auction, but I was wondering if this is common practice to raise EB averages, thus, making owned prints more valuable in the community. It appears that many EB members use the EB average like it's Kelly's Bluebook, and won't budge....but it seems like there are always one or two high priced auctions for a piece that brings up the average. ...thanks
ashfrog
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:12 am

Nevermind...I just found an earlier thread on the subject...thanks.
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electrachrome
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:18 am

the more auctions tracked, the more accurate the average becomes.
the stats on this site are a guide and should be used with common sense and not taken as the be all/end all of what a given poster is worth.

It bares repeating that a print is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it on any given day.
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Yamar
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:20 am

Just like it's a possibility to manipulate an eBay auction as a seller (by having a second account or friends do some shill bidding to suggest a higher market than there is - or just to find out what another bidder's max bid is and either give them a second chance offer or something else), it is/would be possible to artificially inflate figure via the sales histories here.
There is no rhyme or reason to it in some cases - take a good look at Mike King's Nirvana 1990 piece (http://www.expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/5522) for example. I track those auctions when they appear and two dealers seem to have a stack as I seem them both list them pretty consistently every other week or so. But yet one lists them at $50 each (with a $75 BIN) and the other at $250. And both get sales at those levels (granted, the cheaper dealer sells more but still, both have had sales). It this a case of a manipulation of the market? I very much doubt it (knowing both dealers to some extent) but instead a case of an uneducated or oblivious buyer. Some people just don't search for other copies of the same piece and just bid up the one they've found - and sometimes it costs them an extra $10-20, other times it can be hundreds more.

Since we just track auctions here and record the closing prices, there is no accounting for sales/auctions that close but had non-paying bidders and such - there is no way that we can do that (as eBay doesn't shift it's data on closed auctions to reflect that aspect).
People (members) have also suggested in the past that sales by specific members could be used to manipulate prices as well - that a person could submit fraudulent sales for one or various items in an attempt to raise the average sale price. Tis true - this could be done. EB does have it's staff approve any members sales to look in to any grossly high or low prices, in case of an error on the part of the submitter. And really, the only thing that you can do is to take all the data and make a decision for yourself.

I do hear you that some people out there take the average on the charts as the bible. You're not the only one to suggest (complain) about that factor. But really, those charts and the recorded sales are only the data that we can find. It doesn't by any means reflect every recorded sale. It doesn't account for retail/secondary market sales. It doesn't account for a person who sells their extra to a friend at cost six months after the show. And if the staff and/or users of the site don't submit ANY auction out there, it won't get recorded either.
So just because you haven't seen a sale or auction of a piece recorded in a year, doesn't mean it hasn't turned up - just not recorded here.

I do encourage people to do as I try to in many cases. The sales histories are a guide to me. You have to weight damaged print sales. You have to consider how long it's been since one has turned up - if there are a ton of sales for six months and then nothing for a year, is this piece getting hard to find or is it just not being actively tracked?
All in all, it's about doing research and making decisions on your own. If you don't want to take the time, you may pay more, sell for less, or have a hard time finding a trade or buyer. Of course, if I want something enough, I'll trade harder or buy for more than in the past. But it all depends on what YOU as a trader are willing to pay or what price it will take to get it from you.
Does this mean that I've never said "well the average shows..."? Of course not - you use the data and stats as it helps your arguement. And then move on from there. As a trader said to me recently "bargaining is a part of this hobby that I really enjoy".

I try not to forget that. It's a hobby, in the end. And as with any collectible item (or anything else really), it's only "worth" is what someone will pay for it.
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electrachrome
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:25 am

damn Brendan, how much coffee you had this morning?....or is school out and you have more free time?

great answer by the way. :thumb:
ashfrog
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:43 am

Thanks Yamar for the feedback, it's appreciated....
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Yamar
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:10 pm

electrachrome wrote:damn Brendan, how much coffee you had this morning?....or is school out and you have more free time?

great answer by the way. :thumb:
Finished up with my students a little over a month ago. Have since put up a garage, framed out some windows, listed about 200 prints for sale, and finished up a boatload of papers for EB. I think that I'm actually further along on my "summer to do" lists than I've ever managed to be (at least since moving to NY) so that's a good thing. Especially with a bit over 1.5 months to go in my "summer vacation" yet ;)
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stsmytherie
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:08 pm

This should be in the Wiki.
Yamar wrote:Just like it's a possibility to manipulate an eBay auction as a seller (by having a second account or friends do some shill bidding to suggest a higher market than there is - or just to find out what another bidder's max bid is and either give them a second chance offer or something else), it is/would be possible to artificially inflate figure via the sales histories here.
There is no rhyme or reason to it in some cases - take a good look at Mike King's Nirvana 1990 piece (http://www.expressobeans.com/public/detail.php/5522) for example. I track those auctions when they appear and two dealers seem to have a stack as I seem them both list them pretty consistently every other week or so. But yet one lists them at $50 each (with a $75 BIN) and the other at $250. And both get sales at those levels (granted, the cheaper dealer sells more but still, both have had sales). It this a case of a manipulation of the market? I very much doubt it (knowing both dealers to some extent) but instead a case of an uneducated or oblivious buyer. Some people just don't search for other copies of the same piece and just bid up the one they've found - and sometimes it costs them an extra $10-20, other times it can be hundreds more.

Since we just track auctions here and record the closing prices, there is no accounting for sales/auctions that close but had non-paying bidders and such - there is no way that we can do that (as eBay doesn't shift it's data on closed auctions to reflect that aspect).
People (members) have also suggested in the past that sales by specific members could be used to manipulate prices as well - that a person could submit fraudulent sales for one or various items in an attempt to raise the average sale price. Tis true - this could be done. EB does have it's staff approve any members sales to look in to any grossly high or low prices, in case of an error on the part of the submitter. And really, the only thing that you can do is to take all the data and make a decision for yourself.

I do hear you that some people out there take the average on the charts as the bible. You're not the only one to suggest (complain) about that factor. But really, those charts and the recorded sales are only the data that we can find. It doesn't by any means reflect every recorded sale. It doesn't account for retail/secondary market sales. It doesn't account for a person who sells their extra to a friend at cost six months after the show. And if the staff and/or users of the site don't submit ANY auction out there, it won't get recorded either.
So just because you haven't seen a sale or auction of a piece recorded in a year, doesn't mean it hasn't turned up - just not recorded here.

I do encourage people to do as I try to in many cases. The sales histories are a guide to me. You have to weight damaged print sales. You have to consider how long it's been since one has turned up - if there are a ton of sales for six months and then nothing for a year, is this piece getting hard to find or is it just not being actively tracked?
All in all, it's about doing research and making decisions on your own. If you don't want to take the time, you may pay more, sell for less, or have a hard time finding a trade or buyer. Of course, if I want something enough, I'll trade harder or buy for more than in the past. But it all depends on what YOU as a trader are willing to pay or what price it will take to get it from you.
Does this mean that I've never said "well the average shows..."? Of course not - you use the data and stats as it helps your arguement. And then move on from there. As a trader said to me recently "bargaining is a part of this hobby that I really enjoy".

I try not to forget that. It's a hobby, in the end. And as with any collectible item (or anything else really), it's only "worth" is what someone will pay for it.
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Yamar
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:41 pm

So y'all are saying I should actually look into training for my future second career as a grant writer then? Figure I've got about 15-20 years (at least) left on my body physically to keep up with my carpentry job. Grant writing's been a running joke (by me) as a "my next job will be" thing. But I bet I could pull it off...
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Grateful69Phish
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:48 pm

Yamar wrote: EB does have it's staff approve any members sales to look in to any grossly high or low prices, in case of an error on the part of the submitter.

Yamar- is this why some of my recent sales of the Raconteurs Detroit print are not showing- EB staff is booting them out ?

If thats the case, I dont understand- I did sell them at face and nobody even contacted me to determine the validity of the sales

And they are not listed in the sales history

I did exactly as your suppose to a few days ago- confirmed the sale via the trade page "print sold at this price".

I really don't like folks picking and randomly choosing sales info- they should contact the submitter or list the sale
Last edited by Grateful69Phish on Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flimby

Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:49 pm

stsmytherie wrote:This should be in the Wiki.
no doubt. well said yamar.
you could absolutely do grant writing
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Yamar
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Grateful69Phish wrote:
Yamar wrote: EB does have it's staff approve any members sales to look in to any grossly high or low prices, in case of an error on the part of the submitter.

Yamar- is this why some of my recent sales of the Raconteurs Detroit print are not showing- EB staff is booting them out ?

If thats the case, I dont understand- I did sell them at face and nobody even contacted me to determine the validity of the sales

And they are not listed in the sales history

I did exactly as your suppose to a few days ago- confirmed the sale via the trade page "print sold at this price".

I really don't like folks picking and randomly choosing sales info- they should contact the submitter or list the sale
I can only speak for what I've seen over the course of the last week or so (the show was in the last few days, right?) but I haven't seen ANY sales of that print reported in the member sales list awaiting approval. Have you been hitting the "save" button after the "sold at price shown below" one? If you don't, it won't submit the sale to the database...
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electrachrome
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:26 pm

SAVE button...bottom of page.

:idea: we should make that button bigger maybe. It seems to get overlooked by people all the time. (including me)
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db23
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:28 pm

i asked this last week and received no answer. can only the seller in a private sale submit it? if i sell something publicly on EB and i don't register the sale can the buyer?
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Yamar
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Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:31 pm

db23 wrote:i asked this last week and received no answer. can only the seller in a private sale submit it? if i sell something publicly on EB and i don't register the sale can the buyer?
Please submit it - just add a note in the "notes" field that you were the buyer at that price. This way, we can better discern if it's been submitted twice (by both buyer and seller). Or converse with the seller and figure who will report it. The key here is to have one party of the sale listed to give the transaction some support - someone to vouch for the authenticity of it (and might even be able to "prove" that sale price if questioned).
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